Q: Are there certain people in this world who are just never destined to know God?

In John 6:44, it says that people can't go to Jesus unless God has drawn them near to Him. Maybe I'm interpreting this Scripture incorrectly.

I've answered various forms of this question before. Please read this previous post. In it, I quote from the GotQuestions ministry website, which states:

If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”

Please also read our post on this very issue. Here is an excerpt:

If God doesn't choose, then you don't have the ability to turn to Him. Salvation only comes when God chooses us and works in our heart so that we have the ability to respond to Him. Listen to what theologian Donald Bloesch (Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume I: God, Authority and Salvation. Peabody, MA: Prince Press, 1978) says:

'To give all the glory to God in the accomplishing of our salvation is not to reduce man to nothing. Yet we must also not say that man gets some of the credit for his salvation, that man can help in the procuring of his salvation... Our position is that we must affirm both the sovereignty of grace and the responsibility of believers. The two errors to be avoided are the following: that one is saved exclusively by the work of grace upon him thereby not including or allow for personal faith and decision in the salvific process...the second error gives man a determinative role in his justification so that he virtually becomes a co-redeemer with Christ...Only the person who is transformed by divine grace can make a positive response to God's gracious invitation, but only the one who does make such a response is indeed transformed by grace.'

Summarily, there are certainly people in this world who are just never destined to know God. As it states in John 6:44, God must draw a person to Himself in order for that person to be saved (i.e. we cannot come to salvation on our own). However, this does not mean human beings do not have free will. We must embrace and accept this salvation by faith and in trust.

[Answered by Pastor HM]

Q: Since God is all-knowing...

...why did he create Lucifer knowing that he would turn bad? Also did God not make a mistake by creating humans? Where's the proof that God is all-knowing? Is he perfect?

These are tough theological questions. Allow me to answer the last two questions first.

1. Where is the proof that God is all-knowing?

There is no definitive proof of God's omniscience (How can a human being possibly know that God knows all things? It just doesn't work that way!) That being said, Scripture does REVEAL that God does have foreknowledge of all things. God's knowledge of events is described as his "omniscience," or his ability to fully know all things actual and possible in "one simple and eternal act." God is "perfect in knowledge" (Job 37:16) and knows all things (1 John 3:20). He knows all things ACTUAL, meaning all things that exist and all things that happen. He also knows all things that will happen in the future (Isa. 46:9-10) - even the smallest details of life (Matthew 10:30). In addition, God knows all things POSSIBLE, meaning God knows information regarding events that might happen but that do not actually happen. Jesus himself spoke about God's knowledge of possible events in Matthew 11:21, "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." Jesus is saying that Tyre and Sidon WOULD HAVE repented if Jesus' own miracles had been done there.*

2. Is God perfect?

YES. God is perfect in all ways, even in his omniscience or his knowledge of all things actual and possible. The apostle John once wrote "God is light and in him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). "Light" - in this context means that God is both morally pure and fully aware of everything.

3. Why did he create Lucifer knowing that he would turn bad? Also did God not make a mistake by creating humans?

I know you are wondering how can God be perfect if he made his creatures with the full knowledge that they would one day sin. The answer: Just because God is knew that his creatures would sin against Him does not make God imperfect. After all, the reason God created the universe (and everything in it) was for his glory (Psalm 19:1). Even though we may not understand it fully, God's glory is displayed in the act of redeeming his creation. At this point, please read the following article by GodQuestions. Thankfully, they have already answered your question in a concise, biblical manner. Their conclusion?

1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.

2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and foreordained by God.

3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and foreordained by God.

So we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be ‘saved?’ Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it doesn’t make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise to paradise lost to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?

The only conclusion we can come to in view of the above assertions is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you can’t get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of the above assertions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as he saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

I know you'll be frustrated as you wrestle with this issue. In my own experience, I have found the proper/best response when you have questions about why God allows certain things to happen is to be humble and trust in Him. God has perfect knowledge of all events AND He has our goodness in mind. This is reason enough to stay humble and trust Him - no matter what happens.

[Answered by Pastor HM]

*Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 190-191.

Q: If God only chose some to be saved, do those that are not called upon have the chance to turn to God?

"I've read some of the previous questions asked on predestination, but it still doesn't really clear up my mind on some of the issue regarding this topic..."

Admittedly, this is one of those topics that nobody on the planet will completely understand. That being said, it is addressed in Scripture and so Christians cannot ignore it. As you've read some of the previous posts, I won't summarize their content here (for those who haven't read them, read them HERE).

To answer your question directly: No. If God doesn't choose, then you don't have the ability to turn to Him. Salvation only comes when God chooses us and works in our heart so that we have the ability to respond to Him. Listen to what theologian Donald Bloesch (Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume I: God, Authority and Salvation. Peabody, MA: Prince Press, 1978) says:

"To give all the glory to God in the accomplishing of our salvation is not to reduce man to nothing. Yet we must also not say that man gets some of the credit for his salvation, that man can help in the procuring of his salvation... Our position is that we must affirm both the sovereignty of grace and the responsibility of believers. The two errors to be avoided are the following: that one is saved exclusively by the work of grace upon him thereby not including or allow for personal faith and decision in the salvific process...the second error gives man a determinative role in his justification so that he virtually becomes a co-redeemer with Christ...Only the person who is transformed by divine grace can make a positive response to God's gracious invitation, but only the one who does make such a response is indeed transformed by grace."

God wants all people to be saved and become his children, but what he ordains is actually that only some will be saved; the rest will never know him. However, in my experience we also need to be careful in our understanding, even if we have what we think to be the “right” view on this big topic of God’s election. A simple indoctrination on the topic can do us more harm than good in our view of God. First off, we have to agree that we don’t know all the answers. I really want you to read Romans 9:1-26, and see if you can connect with Paul’s argument on the topic of God’s election (which really answers your question). I’ll summarize/paraphrase what Paul’s logic is (though you should just read it yourself):

-In the OT Bible stories, God clearly elected some, like Jacob; he also didn’t elect others, like Esau

-God chose Jacob before he was born; to emphasize that he wasn’t chosen because of anything he did (his own righteousness, or how smart/good-looking/nice he was)

-What shall we say? Is God unjust for choosing like this? Not at all! God can be merciful or unmerciful to whomever he chooses.

-I hear you asking, “Then why does God blame us? For who can resist his will?”

-But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” God can do what he wants. Maybe God chose this way of doing things so that he could make his power and wrath better known, and so that we who are elected as Christians could truly appreciate what’s been given.

This probably isn’t a comforting passage if you were looking for clear understanding on God’s election, yet this is one of the clearest passages in the Bible about election. We might be screaming “that’s not the answer I want.” But God has given us that answer, and he can use even our lack of knowledge and control to teach us a lesson on humility and realizing our place under God. We’re not God, and there are some things we need to accept that we’ll never know in this lifetime. We can instead take the attitude of David, who writes: “My heart is not proud, O LORD, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me. But I have stilled and quieted my soul; like a weaned child with its mother, like a weaned child is my soul within me. O Israel, put your hope in the LORD both now and forevermore.” (Psalm 131) This is a mysterious topic, and we need to accept to a certain extent that free will and predestination are two parallel lines that only meet in eternity, and that some questions just won’t ever receive the clear logical answers we want in this lifetime.

Regardless of whether we have all the answers or not, and regardless of which view you take on the debate of election/predestination, these principles are important for us all:

1) We need to live in the present as only God knows who has been chosen and who hasn’t. The Biblical idea of God’s election should be freeing, and give us greater motivation in evangelism. Oftentimes on this topic, people say, “Well then, what’s the point of telling my friends about Christ? God’s gonna save them or not, and I can’t change that.” But the point is that we’ll never know, and God has commanded us regardless to go share the Gospel (Matt 28:19-20). And knowing that the conversion process is not up to us and “how good we are at presenting the Gospel” is a very liberating understanding that should compel us to tell more people about this glorious God. In history, many of the greatest missionaries have strongly believed in God’s predestined election. For ourselves, we’re also sure in times of hardship and doubt that God has chosen us, and nothing in this world can steal us away.

2) God is love. It’s easy to see God as being heartless and unfair. But we need to understand he is God, and we are men. And the fact that he even chooses to save some (when he could have saved none) is a testament to his love. And the way he did it, namely through giving his only begotten son into the hands of fallen men that he sovereignty knew would slaughter him, is a testament to that love he has for the whole world.

[Answered by Pastor HM and Mark Cheng]

Q: Are we predestined/called or do we choose?

Hi friend. You've asked a very controversial, and intriguing question. We've answered a series of similar questions HERE. I encourage you to read these carefully. Got Questions has answered your question too. Read their answer here. Here is an important excerpt:

If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”

Also, listen to this sermon by Seattle's Pastor Mark Driscoll.

Q: How can Christians be labelled "chosen" and how can non-Christians not fall under that category?

Someone once told me that Christians are God's "chosen people". Does that mean that non-Christians are destined to go to hell and that there is no chance for them to become believers? Doesn't God want everyone to be His children? How can Christians be labelled "chosen" and how can non-Christians not fall under that category? Can they not be saved as well?

Answer:

This is a great question, and one that Christians have pondered for centuries. We know that God loves the whole world and desires all men to know him (2 Cor 5:15), yet we also read that he has chosen or elected certain people (Rom 8:33). Most Christians don’t have a problem with God choosing people, until they realize that the logical result of a God that chooses some people is that he DOESN’T choose others. People will go to hell under the watch of a loving God, and this doesn’t sit well with how a lot of us today view God (whether that’s based on the Bible or not). Ho-Ming has provided answers to similar questions on this blog regarding predestination, which is really one and the same topic (see here and here)

As background, not all Christians would agree on the same answer to your question; the two groups, Arminians and Calvinists, as they are called, diverge on the topic of election/predestination/free will. Pretty much, do we determine our own fate by the choices we make, or is everything already chosen for us by God? Both camps have several Bible passages that support their stances. After years of my own personal seeking, I have found that I align with the Calvinist view, which claims that God has predestined or elected Christians and will himself save them, seems to have a more Christ-centered perspective on the Bible and God’s grace. Contrastingly, the Arminians tend to focus on human choice, and what actions we take to seek God; they focus on certain verses or instances in the Bible where it seems God is very clearly saying that we have a choice and need to choose righteously (Deut 30:19-20). Despite my own convictions, I can’t say that any of us will ever be certain in this lifetime. I would encourage you all to read this article by John Piper, a Calvinist, who explains how God can have “two wills”: http://theresurgence.com/john_piper_2000_are_there_two_wills_in_god.

“Affirming the will of God to save all, while also affirming the unconditional election of some, implies that there are at least ‘two wills’ in God, or two ways of willing. It implies that God decrees one state of affairs while also willing and teaching that a different state of affairs should come to pass.” – John Piper

In other words, when we say God’s will, we can be talking about two different things: what God would like to see happen, and what he actually wills to happen. That means that God wants all people to be saved and become his children, but what he ordains is actually that only some will be saved; the rest will never know him. There is great evidence to support what John Piper and the Calvinists say. However, in my experience we also need to be careful in our understanding, even if we have what we think to be the “right” view on this big topic of God’s election. A simple indoctrination on the topic can do us more harm than good in our view of God. First off, we have to agree that we don’t know all the answers. I really want you to read Romans 9:1-26, and see if you can connect with Paul’s argument on the topic of God’s election (which really answers your question). I’ll summarize/paraphrase what Paul’s logic is (though you should just read it yourself):

• In the OT Bible stories, God clearly elected some, like Jacob; he also didn’t elect others, like Esau
• God chose Jacob before he was born; to emphasize that he wasn’t chosen because of anything he did (his own righteousness, or how smart/good-looking/nice he was)
• What shall we say? Is God unjust for choosing like this? Not at all! God can be merciful or unmerciful to whomever he chooses.
• I hear you asking, “Then why does God blame us? For who can resist his will?”
• But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” God can do what he wants. Maybe God chose this way of doing things so that he could make his power and wrath better known, and so that we who are elected as Christians could truly appreciate what’s been given.

This probably isn’t a comforting passage if you were looking for clear understanding on God’s election, yet this is one of the clearest passages in the Bible about election. We might be screaming “that’s not the answer I want.” But God has given us that answer, and he can use even our lack of knowledge and control to teach us a lesson on humility and realizing our place under God. We’re not God, and there are some things we need to accept that we’ll never know in this lifetime. We can instead take the attitude of David, who writes: “My heart is not proud, O LORD, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me. But I have stilled and quieted my soul; like a weaned child with its mother, like a weaned child is my soul within me. O Israel, put your hope in the LORD both now and forevermore.” (Psalm 131) This is a mysterious topic, and we need to accept to a certain extent that free will and predestination are two parallel lines that only meet in eternity, and that some questions just won’t ever receive the clear logical answers we want in this lifetime.

Regardless of whether we have all the answers or not, and regardless of which view you take on the debate of election/predestination, these principles are important for us all:

1) We need to live in the present as only God knows who has been chosen and who hasn’t. The Biblical idea of God’s election should be freeing, and give us greater motivation in evangelism. Oftentimes on this topic, people say, “Well then, what’s the point of telling my friends about Christ? God’s gonna save them or not, and I can’t change that.” But the point is that we’ll never know, and God has commanded us regardless to go share the Gospel (Matt 28:19-20). And knowing that the conversion process is not up to us and “how good we are at presenting the Gospel” is a very liberating understanding that should compel us to tell more people about this glorious God. In history, many of the greatest missionaries have strongly believed in God’s predestined election. For ourselves, we’re also sure in times of hardship and doubt that God has chosen us, and nothing in this world can steal us away.

2) God is love. It’s easy to see God as being heartless and unfair. But we need to understand he is God, and we are men. And the fact that he even chooses to save some (when he could have saved none) is a testament to his love. And the way he did it, namely through giving his only begotten son into the hands of fallen men that he sovereignty knew would slaughter him, is a testament to that love he has for the whole world.

[Answered by Counselor Mark Cheng]

Q: If everything is predetermined, how exactly is it free will?

"How it is free will if everything is already mapped out for everyone? For example, if you think of a game of chess. Think of you as God and the pieces as people. Say there's this one pawn that is in a position to take two opposing pawns. This pawn thinks that it will take the pawn on the right, but you (God) have always known that it will take the piece on the right. So if everything is already predetermined, how exactly is it free will?

What you're describing is known as "theological fatalism." The following text is from the "Got Questions" answer page. I think it answers your question well. To read the entire article, click HERE. Here is a portion of what they write...

"Theological fatalism is an attempt to demonstrate a logical contradiction between an omniscient God and free will, where free will is defined as the ability to choose between alternatives. In this it is similar in purpose to the conundrum "Can an omnipotent God make a rock so heavy that even he is not able to lift it?"

Theological fatalism’s premises are stated as follows: God is omniscient. Since God is omniscient, God has infallible foreknowledge. If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will engage in an event (mow the lawn), then you must invariably engage in that event (mowing the lawn). Therefore, free-will is not possible since you have no alternative except to engage in the event (mow the lawn). In the event that you do not fulfill event, then God is not omniscient. Alternatively, if you engage in event, then you don't have free will on account of the inability to choose another alternative.

An opposing argument can state: God is omniscient. Since God is omniscient, He is also infallible. If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will engage in an event, then you will freely choose this based on your free will, not out of obligation or lack of choice about the event. You still have free will to engage in the event; God merely knows your choice before you make it. You are not obliged to make choice 'A' (mowing the lawn) any more than choice 'B' (playing tennis). If you were going to change your mind, God would have seen that also, so you still have full free will in all matters. Also, you will still make the same choices (with free will), even if God chose to not see the future. Seeing the future or not does not alter your free will."

In addition, carm.org (read an article about "free will" here) says this concerning fatalism:

There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28). Why? Because God always knows all things: "...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).

[Answered by Pastor HM]

Q: Predestination?

"We all agree that man does have free will to choose God and follow Him. But I also think the position of Predestination is also biblical. From the verses I read God in His sovereignty has chosen those who have been saved already. Are puny minds can't understand that though until maybe we get to heaven. Can you give some insight into this? Verses to examine: John 15:16; Acts 13:48; Romans 9:15-16; Romans 9:22-24; Ephesians 1:4-5; Ephesians 1:11; Philippians 1:29; 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13."

"No one can seek you unless he has already found you." Bernard of Clairvaux

"I can only show you the door, you are the one who has to walk through it." Morpheus, The Matrix

It seems there are actually two questions here. First, there is the question whether predestination has any biblical grounding. Second, if there is biblical grounding for this position, then how does this work with our free will? Before I begin, let me just say this is a massive question that has been hotly debated for hundreds of years (!), so chances are - whatever answer I give will be inadequate and brief. But I hope to point you in the right direction.

1. The 1st question is whether a person's eternal destiny is chosen by God before their birth. In other words, does God predestine people to go to heaven? From the verses you listed, this appears to be the case. That is why there are many that argue for this position. Those who support the doctrine of predestination are called "Reformed" or "Calvinist." Calvinists argue (this is taken from carm.org):

1)Total depravity: that man is touched by sin in all parts of his being: body, soul, mind, and emotions,

2)Unconditional Election: that God’s favor to Man is completely by God’s free choice and has nothing to do with Man. It is completely undeserved by Man and is not based on anything God sees in man (Eph. 1:1-11),

3) Limited atonement: that Christ did not bear the sins of every individual who ever lived, but instead only bore the sins of those who were elected into salvation (John 10:11,15),

4) Irresistible grace: that God's call to someone for salvation cannot be resisted,

5) Perseverance of the saints: that it is not possible to lose one's salvation (John 10:27-28).

The second position stresses the freedom of the human will in salvation. This school of thought is known as "Arminianism." In contrast to Calvinism, they argue (also from carm.org):

1) God elects or reproves on the basis of foreseen faith or unbelief,

2) Christ died for all men and for every man, although only believers are saved,

3) Man is so depraved that divine grace is necessary unto faith or any good deed,

4) This grace may be resisted,

5) Whether all who are truly regenerate will certainly persevere in the faith is a point which needs further investigation.

This blog will not allow me to examine each of the verses you listed in depth, but please listen to this sermon by Calvinist Mark Driscoll (I've also embedded it below). He answers your primary questions; subsequent questions you may have and makes a case for Calvinism OVER Arminianism. The sermon notes, entitled, "Predestination: Duck, Duck, Damned?") can be found here.

2. Your 2nd question: How does free will work with predestination? As you have recognized, human beings are limited and have relatively "puny" minds, so this is mystery (Eph. 1:9). Yet I believe, from the Scriptures, it can be argued that even though God chooses (and therefore) saves us, those who are chosen have a part to play. Listen to what Theologian Donald Bloesch (in his book, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume I: God, Authority and Salvation. Peabody, MA: Prince Press, 1978) says about this issue:

"To give all the glory to God in the accomplishing of our salvation is not to reduce man to nothing. Yet we must also not say that man gets some of the credit for his salvation, that man can help in the procuring of his salvation... Our position is that we must affirm both the sovereignty of grace and the responsibility of believers. The two errors to be avoided are the following: that one is saved exclusively by the work of grace upon him thereby not including or allow for personal faith and decision in the salvific process...the second error gives man a determinative role in his justification so that he virtually becomes a co-redeemer with Christ...Only the person who is transformed by divine grace can make a positive response to God's gracious invitation, but only the one who does make such a response is indeed transformed by grace."

If you're confused, don't fret. This is a doctrine that defies rational understanding. There is no easy or simple answer. All we know is that God, in his sovereign will, saves some people. God predestines some to be saved. The act of saving is absolutely God's work. Yet in order to be saved, a person must - in her free-will - repent of sin, turn to Jesus and love God throughout her life.

Hope this helps.

[Answered by Pastor HM]