Women pastors? Which view?

This is a response to "Q: What is the point CARM is trying to make and shouldn't women be able to preach (and be pastors)?". Out of the three views, which view do you believe is "right"? I know at RHCCC there are women pastors. I'm confused by this, and I would like to know which one I should stand up for, since I'm considering being a pastor (and I'm a girl).

First, I'd like to commend you for considering leadership in the church. We need more Christian men and women to serve God in vocational, full-time ministry! 

To answer your question directly, I will say the following (N.B. this is an excerpt from a previous post): According to the passages 1 Tim. 2:12-13; 1 Tim 5:17 and Titus 1:5-9 (i.e. passages that are discussed in the CARM post),  the issue is not if a woman can be in ministry, but rather what ministry a woman can be in. According to these passages, women can do anything from leading a Bible study, overseeing a ministry, leading musical worship, receiving formal theological training, entering into full-time paid ministry, serving as a deacon etc. BUT in terms of the SENIOR LEADERSHIP of the church (mainly rooted in the tasks of preaching and exercising authority over the church), this is a male-only office. I lean toward this view - which is the complementary view. I believe it is the most biblical-sound. However, I do realize that I work with many wonderful women pastors such as Pastor Kelly and they are VERY good at their job. So I believe women can serve in all sorts of ministry roles. But I believe the senior leadership of the church should fall upon a man's shoulders (ex. RHCCC's two senior leaders are both men). 

So where do we go from here? Here are several suggestions:

1. Keep looking through the Scriptures with an open mind and heart, especially passages such as 1 Tim. 2:12-13; 1 Tim 5:17 and Titus 1:5-9. Remember all of us - men and women - must test all our ideas and thoughts with Scripture.

2. Pray to God. Ask him to show you signs that you are called to be a pastor. The call to shepherd God's people is a distinct one; and not every person can do it well.

3. If you do decide to work within a church, stand up for having male senior leaders. They are called by God to lead the church. This is not a bad thing. It forces men to step up, and lead, protect and love the people of God (Ephesians 5:22-26). As a female pastor, you can certainly do many tasks. But I would leave the primary preaching and leadership roles to a male. God designed women to help men (Genesis 2:19). This doesn't men women can't do the job as well as men; it only means God has ordained them to have different roles and responsibilities.

4. Consider other full-time ministries other than the role of a pastor. Many of my female friends works for Christian organizations such as WorldVision and Wycliffe Bible Translators. I know others who teach at Christian universities as professors. 

5. Pastor Kelly and myself would be happy to talk to you and pray for you. Just fire an e-mail our way, and let's chat. 

[Answered by Pastor HM]

 

 

Q: What is the point CARM is trying to make and shouldn't women be able to preach (and be pastors)?

I was studying the website, CARM, and it looked as if they opposed women as pastors. Can you please offer some insight into this topic? I believe that women should be allowed to pastors. As well, I know that in at least one of the quoted verses (1 Tim. 2:12-14) there is another reason that women used to not be able to speak in churches - because they were not educated in the past. So I don't get it, what is the point CARM is trying to make and shouldn't women be able to preach (and be pastors)?

This is a hotly debated topic in the church today. I've answered this question in the past. Please read the answer here. In essence, there are three views on this matter.

1. The complementarian view, which states that all ministries are open to qualified men and women with the only exception of the office of the elder/pastor. This is the view CARM holds. Read all their articles here. I implore you take an extended time to read through CARM's arguments before coming to conclusions. They've taken a lot of time to address objections; state their position clearly, etc. I do not believe that CARM is saying that women are not allowed to be pastors because they were uneducated in the past. Rather they are saying that it was and always will be a matter of authority and headship. In other words, the complementarian view affirms the equal value of women and men in God's sight, but argues that God created the two genders with different roles. Subsequently, the office/role of a pastor is for men only:

1 Tim. 2:12-14 is where Paul explicitly states that he does not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet ("quiet" is hesuchia, not complete silence, but respectful quiet) – because Adam was created first. When a woman is a pastor and/or elder, she is in a place of authority over men. Paul clearly tells us this authority in the church structure is not the place for a woman because Adam was made first. This is not a cultural issue. Remember, Eve sinned first, but sin entered the world through Adam, not Eve (Rom. 5:12), because Adam was in the position of authority. This is why husbands are the head of the wife even as Christ is head of the church (Eph. 5:23). The place of authority in the church and family is not the place of the woman.

Elsewhere, CARM also states:

There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling.

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB). This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Acts 2:17; 18:24; 21:8). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not in a social or political context.

When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity," (1 Tim. 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.

In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict," (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things," (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.

Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women.

Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

2. The egalitarian/liberal view is that men and women are partners together in every area of ministry, INCLUDING the office of the elder/pastor. Those who support this view (see this example) will say that Paul did not select female elders/pastors b/c he was working within the confines of the culture of his day. The implication here is that if Paul were alive today, he would have chosen women elders/pastors. Another argument is that Paul (and Jesus) co-labored with women in vital ministry positions (e.g. Priscilla, Lydia, Euodia, Phoebe, etc.).

3. The third view is the most conservative view: Women are not permitted to be a deacon, elder/pastor, serve communion, lead worship, pray or even speak in a church service. Women should, instead, focus on building ministries for women and children ONLY.

Summarily, the theological debates will continue and there will be continual disagreement on this issue. However, what we can agree upon is that this is not an issue on which our salvation depends, and therefore, there can be room for disagreement. HOWEVER, where you land on this issue of women in ministry does reflect how you view Scripture, gender, marriage and ministry. It is, therefore, an important matter in which you must take a stance. I would urge you to consider your stance in view of Scripture. Whichever view you hold, you must be able to back it up with what the Bible says.

[Answered by Pastor HM]

Q: Can women be pastors in the church?

"Is there any prohibition of women leading the church? It appears this may be the case, for example, Adam being created first and where Paul mentions that women should not teach or have authority over a male? Can you shed some insight on this matter? Verses to examine: 1 Tim. 2:12-13; 1 Tim 5:17 and Titus 1:5-9."

This is a very HOT and controversial subject and has raised quite the stir in much of the church. Some have argued for this position; others against it. Some have tried to seek a balance; others ignore the issue, hoping to avoid conflict at all costs.

As we believe the Bible is the final authority in matters, let's examine the verses you mentioned. As you may know, these verses are from Paul's "pastoral letters" - he wrote them to instruct the church how it should be governed and by whom.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve (1 Tim. 2:12-13)

Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching (1 Tim. 5:17)

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. (Titus 1:5-9)

In 1 Tim. 5:17 and Titus 1:5-9, the term "elder" is used. As you can see, the implication here is that elders (or "pastors") should be men. Titus 1:5-9 repeatedly uses the male 3rd person pronoun ("he") to describe the elder/pastor.

In 1 Tim. 2:12-13, Paul tells the church that the male elder/pastor is the only one that should (1) teach Scripture to men in the church and (2) exercise authority over men in the church. Women are prohibited from doing so. The context implies, however, that women are able to teach other women and children/youth (see Titus 2:4; 2 Tim. 1:5) and serve in other ministries (1 Cor 11:5; 1 Cor. 14:34-35). Notice v. 13, "For Adam was formed first, then Eve." Paul is telling the church that the reason why the leadership of the church falls on the shoulders of men is because God made men with a patriarchal role of leadership. In Gen. 1-2, we learn that God made the man first (which established him as the leader responsible for the rest of creation, similar to how a firstborn son was responsible for his siblings in the Old Testament) and that God made a wife as his helper.

According to these passages, the issue is not if a woman can be in ministry, but rather what ministry a woman can be in. According to these passages, women can do anything from leading a Bible study, overseeing a ministry, leading musical worship, receiving formal theological training, entering into full-time paid ministry, serving as a deacon etc. BUT in terms of the senior leadership of the church (rooted in the task of preaching and exercising authority over the church), this is a male-only office.

Now, that being said, there are others that strongly disagree with this perspective. There two other prominent views I will explore briefly. What I examined, by the way, is known as the complementarian view, which states that all ministries are open to qualified men and women with the only exception of the office of the elder/pastor.

The more liberal view is that men and women are partners together in every area of ministry, INCLUDING the office of the elder/pastor. Those who support this view will say that Paul did not select female elders/pastors b/c he was working within the confines of the culture of his day. The implication here is that if Paul were alive today, he would have chosen women elders/pastors. Another argument is that Paul (and Jesus) co-labored with women in vital ministry positions (e.g. Priscilla, Lydia, Euodia, Phoebe, etc.).

The third view is more conservative: Women are not permitted to be a deacon, elder/pastor, serve communion, lead worship, pray or even speak in a church service. Women should, instead, focus on building ministries for women and children ONLY.

Summarily, the theological debates will rage on. There will be continual disagreement on this issue. However, what we can agree upon is that this is not an issue on which our salvation depends, and therefore, there can be room for disagreement. HOWEVER, where you land on this issue of women in ministry does reflect how you view Scripture, gender, marriage and ministry. It is, therefore, an important matter in which you must take a stance.

Hope this helps.

[Answered by Pastor HM]